<div><br></div><div>Hey,<br></div><div>Thanks for the insight into systemd. I am running some tests with runit and openrc against a Mint box. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Sent from <a href="https://protonmail.ch">ProtonMail</a>, encrypted email based in Switzerland.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="protonmail_quote"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: discuss Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8<br></div><div>Local Time: November 11 2015 6:00 am<br></div><div>UTC Time: November 11 2015 12:00 pm<br></div><div>From: discuss-request@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>To: discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div><br></div><div>Send discuss mailing list submissions to<br></div><div>
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Today's Topics:<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
1. Re: systemd (Steve Litt)<br></div><div>
2. Re: systemd (Derek Pressnall)<br></div><div>
3. Re: systemd (William Giokas)<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Message: 1<br></div><div>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:31:38 -0500<br></div><div>
From: Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com><br></div><div>
To: chicagolug <discuss@lists.chicagolug.org><br></div><div>
Subject: Re: [chiglug] systemd<br></div><div>
Message-ID: <20151110113138.4a57f6d5@mydesk.domain.cxm><br></div><div>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:00:54 +0000<br></div><div>
Rob Dux <robwdux@gmail.com> wrote:<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
> I'd like to know where systemd shines i.e. what is the best<br></div><div>
> application for systemd and my current belief is desktop. <br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Only to the extent that the Freedesktop project has dependencied their<br></div><div>
stuff to the extent that it's hard to get working without systemd, and<br></div><div>
of course Gnome doesn't work without systemd unless the distro<br></div><div>
massively changes the Gnome code.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
My Daily Driver Desktop, which I use 80% as a desktop and 20% as a<br></div><div>
server, would gain no benefit from systemd, and instead inits with<br></div><div>
Runit.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Offhand I can think of two use cases for systemd:<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
1) You need a lightning fast boot<br></div><div>
2) You have a team of Unix-inexperienced technologists who would find<br></div><div>
it easier to learn systemctl than to learn Unix.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
> I interact<br></div><div>
> with it in fedora and when I have to shell into servers that use it.<br></div><div>
> <br></div><div>
> We're adopting Docker at my employer for which I gave a talk last lug<br></div><div>
> and there is a requirement for an init system in some applications for<br></div><div>
> containers which I selected s6 for various reasons. <br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Nice! Please let me know how s6 works for you. The only stuff I've done<br></div><div>
with s6 has been purely experimental. Have you tried s6-rc yet? I<br></div><div>
haven't.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
> As far as Docker<br></div><div>
> hosts, Alpine Linux seems most ideal and it ships with OpenRC. <br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
> In<br></div><div>
> every case for our production needs, minimalism is the key.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
OpenRC never struck me as minimal. It needs another PID1 (usually<br></div><div>
sysvinit) to start up, and it can't respawn dead daemons, so to do so<br></div><div>
you need either sysvinit on the PID1 end, or<br></div><div>
daemontools/daemontools-encore on the other end.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
SteveT<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Steve Litt <br></div><div>
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques<br></div><div>
of the Successful Technologist<br></div><div>
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
------------------------------<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Message: 2<br></div><div>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:15:22 -0600<br></div><div>
From: Derek Pressnall <derekp@needcaffeine.net><br></div><div>
Cc: discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>
Subject: Re: [chiglug] systemd<br></div><div>
Message-ID:<br></div><div>
<CAEnESSkrE5dXhwWQnTRHHCh3mcNCjN6x4kafC5o287JtkPCM5Q@mail.gmail.com><br></div><div>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
I really like systemd in general, but there are a few things that gets me:<br></div><div>
1) It isn't as transparent as rc files<br></div><div>
When there is a problem, you can't just turn on -xv in the bash<br></div><div>
scripts to see what all is going on. And with the parallel startup<br></div><div>
nature, it is hard to figure out which messages are related to a given<br></div><div>
hang condition on startup. Of course, there are systemd-specific<br></div><div>
commands that can be use to diagnose issues, but that is an additional<br></div><div>
learning curve (traditionally, there was an easy transition from<br></div><div>
normal Unix admin skills to Linux).<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Here's a real-world example that I ran into recently: the system<br></div><div>
(Fedora 22 I believe) hung up in the middle of shutdown, giving me no<br></div><div>
option other than a hard power off. Apparently, I mounted a Windows<br></div><div>
SMB file share manually, and systemd decided to cut the network off<br></div><div>
before unmounting the share. So the shutdown hung. Now maybe I<br></div><div>
should have added a line in /etc/fstab indicating this was a _netdev,<br></div><div>
but I still should be able to temporarily mount a filesystem from the<br></div><div>
command line.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
2) Could systemd still do its magic if it wasn't PID 1? That is, keep<br></div><div>
a very simple traditional init, which then launches systemd that would<br></div><div>
then own the bulk of the other services. This would allow peace an<br></div><div>
harmony between the old and new way of doing things. But then again,<br></div><div>
I imagine that systemd wouldn't be as useful if there were other<br></div><div>
processes running outside of it.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Now, something I'd like to see added (if it can be done with the<br></div><div>
existing systemd framework): Could systemd intercept a console key<br></div><div>
combination that brings up a (password-protected) rescue environment?<br></div><div>
That way if there is a problem on startup or shutdown, this can be<br></div><div>
used to at least help diagnose the issue. The environment could be a<br></div><div>
command shell with all the busybox commands pre-linked into it (so<br></div><div>
that it wouldn't even require a mounted root image).<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:01 AM, sten <me@sud0.com> wrote:<br></div><div>
> Hey,<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> So I'm trying to put together a presentation about systemd for people who<br></div><div>
> have decided they have some sort of problem with systemd. I'd love for it to<br></div><div>
> be conversational styled - me and someone (or someones) who wants to talk in<br></div><div>
> front of people in favor of sysvinit or a different alternative.<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> I talked to a couple folks 2 meetings ago, but I may have been overly<br></div><div>
> confrontational about it, and I really want to hear what objections still<br></div><div>
> remain.<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> Drop me a note on- or off-list, let's see if we can come up with something<br></div><div>
> together.<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> -sten<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> _______________________________________________<br></div><div>
> discuss mailing list<br></div><div>
> discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>
> https://lists.chicagolug.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
------------------------------<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Message: 3<br></div><div>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:27:39 -0800<br></div><div>
From: William Giokas <1007380@gmail.com><br></div><div>
To: Derek Pressnall <derekp@needcaffeine.net><br></div><div>
Cc: discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>
Subject: Re: [chiglug] systemd<br></div><div>
Message-ID:<br></div><div>
<CAEAHfPB7Gu8f-PYPencPirfMDHNYzDU8hO2XF+jgKrRGGixQLA@mail.gmail.com><br></div><div>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
About 1, I would disagree. An rc file can have any scripting language the<br></div><div>
author can rely on to be on the system (zhs, bash, sh, perl, etc.), there's<br></div><div>
no standardized options. Does init script x fork the exact same way as y?<br></div><div>
They could be in written very differently. When systemd services are looked<br></div><div>
at, either at the file or with systemctl show, the options are all listed.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Also, while looking at a shell script may be second nature to users like<br></div><div>
us, to newer or less experienced users, and not importantly machines,<br></div><div>
systemd services are vastly easier to parse. Certain things can't be<br></div><div>
achieved through the options systemd gives you, but then at that point you<br></div><div>
can just use an initscript in systemd, if need be.<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
Bill Giokas<br></div><div>
http://kaictl.net/<br></div><div>
On Nov 10, 2015 1:15 PM, "Derek Pressnall" <derekp@needcaffeine.net> wrote:<br></div><div>
<br></div><div>
> I really like systemd in general, but there are a few things that gets me:<br></div><div>
> 1) It isn't as transparent as rc files<br></div><div>
> When there is a problem, you can't just turn on -xv in the bash<br></div><div>
> scripts to see what all is going on. And with the parallel startup<br></div><div>
> nature, it is hard to figure out which messages are related to a given<br></div><div>
> hang condition on startup. Of course, there are systemd-specific<br></div><div>
> commands that can be use to diagnose issues, but that is an additional<br></div><div>
> learning curve (traditionally, there was an easy transition from<br></div><div>
> normal Unix admin skills to Linux).<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> Here's a real-world example that I ran into recently: the system<br></div><div>
> (Fedora 22 I believe) hung up in the middle of shutdown, giving me no<br></div><div>
> option other than a hard power off. Apparently, I mounted a Windows<br></div><div>
> SMB file share manually, and systemd decided to cut the network off<br></div><div>
> before unmounting the share. So the shutdown hung. Now maybe I<br></div><div>
> should have added a line in /etc/fstab indicating this was a _netdev,<br></div><div>
> but I still should be able to temporarily mount a filesystem from the<br></div><div>
> command line.<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> 2) Could systemd still do its magic if it wasn't PID 1? That is, keep<br></div><div>
> a very simple traditional init, which then launches systemd that would<br></div><div>
> then own the bulk of the other services. This would allow peace an<br></div><div>
> harmony between the old and new way of doing things. But then again,<br></div><div>
> I imagine that systemd wouldn't be as useful if there were other<br></div><div>
> processes running outside of it.<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> Now, something I'd like to see added (if it can be done with the<br></div><div>
> existing systemd framework): Could systemd intercept a console key<br></div><div>
> combination that brings up a (password-protected) rescue environment?<br></div><div>
> That way if there is a problem on startup or shutdown, this can be<br></div><div>
> used to at least help diagnose the issue. The environment could be a<br></div><div>
> command shell with all the busybox commands pre-linked into it (so<br></div><div>
> that it wouldn't even require a mounted root image).<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:01 AM, sten <me@sud0.com> wrote:<br></div><div>
> > Hey,<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> > So I'm trying to put together a presentation about systemd for people who<br></div><div>
> > have decided they have some sort of problem with systemd. I'd love for<br></div><div>
> it to<br></div><div>
> > be conversational styled - me and someone (or someones) who wants to<br></div><div>
> talk in<br></div><div>
> > front of people in favor of sysvinit or a different alternative.<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> > I talked to a couple folks 2 meetings ago, but I may have been overly<br></div><div>
> > confrontational about it, and I really want to hear what objections still<br></div><div>
> > remain.<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> > Drop me a note on- or off-list, let's see if we can come up with<br></div><div>
> something<br></div><div>
> > together.<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> > -sten<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
> > _______________________________________________<br></div><div>
> > discuss mailing list<br></div><div>
> > discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>
> > https://lists.chicagolug.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss<br></div><div>
> ><br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
> _______________________________________________<br></div><div>
> discuss mailing list<br></div><div>
> discuss@lists.chicagolug.org<br></div><div>
> https://lists.chicagolug.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss<br></div><div>
><br></div><div>
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